Ragtown Reformed Forum Episode 4: Is Faith Alone Enough? Gordan Runyan: Hello, here we are feeling spicy at the Ragtown Reformed roundtable. And my name is Gordan Runyan. I'm the pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Tucumcari, New Mexico. To my left on your radio dial is Deacon John Train. How are you doing, brother? John Train: Doing fine. Hello. Gordan Runyan: To my extreme right over there is our music minister, Minister David Morris. How are you, my friend? David Morris: Good, sir, good. Gordan Runyan: And sitting right next to me to keep me straight is Pastor Tom Miller from First Christian Church here in Tucumcari. Brother, welcome. Tom Miller: Good afternoon. Gordan Runyan: So we're here to talk about season one, episode four, sola fide. Well, let's jump right in and let's talk about what sola fide is. What does it mean? Somebody give me a definition. I have some definitions, but maybe it'd be easier for me to read them and then have y'all talk about it. But let us see. Okay, I got all these off the internet here, so you tell me where these things are wrong or where you agree with them. Sola fide is Latin for faith alone. It's the foundational theological principle of the Protestant Reformation. Tom Miller: Amen. Gordan Runyan: That's right. Tom Miller: That's right. Gordan Runyan: It's the key doctrine of the Reformation. Tom Miller: Yeah, that's right. Gordan Runyan: I would—I don't want to open a can of worms. I think there's another reformational doctrine that distinguished it. And it's more minor, but you had the foundational doctrine, sola fide, but then also you had a universal belief in that the office of the pope was the antichrist and the antichrist spirit, the beast of Revelation. John Train: Rejecting papal authority. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, false authority. David Morris: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: So we have sola fide, faith alone. Somebody tell me what we mean by faith alone. John Train: Basically, faith alone means that God accepts sinners based on their faith alone in Christ, who died for them and was raised from the dead for them. And now God can count a sinner as righteous, although they have broken the law, solely because Christ's obedience is credited to their account, and God does not impute their sins to them. David Morris: Right, right. John Train: So it's specifically talking about how is a sinner received into God's presence and fellowship. Okay. Gordan Runyan: I think the theological key word I was looking for was justification. Yeah, that we are justified by faith alone. And the Roman Church at the time believed that you don't stop being justified; you're justified as a process, and finally when you get there, you'll be fully justified. But the Protestant view is we are justified, that is counted not guilty before the throne of God, one time, and from that point forward we're working that out. David Morris: Right. John Train: One time can't be lost. Gordan Runyan: Right. John Train: Can't be redone. Tom Miller: For Luther, it was Romans 1:17, the just... Shall live by faith. We cannot justify ourselves, but our faith does the justifying because of Christ's finished work. We're not trying to. The Romanist Church adds tradition and works to what Christ completed on the cross. So therefore, we say it's by faith alone. John Train: Right, sure. They deny that Christ's active and passive obedience, which is a distinction the scholastic theologians came up with. Yeah, and it's viewing Christ's obedience in two aspects, right? His active obedience is where Jesus obeyed God's law perfectly his entire life without failure. And his passive obedience focuses on his obedience in suffering in the place of his people, right? And so the Roman Church denies that that work that Christ already has accomplished is sufficient to justify a sinner. Tom Miller: Right. John Train: That's where the controversy. Tom Miller: Well, and the crux to the problem is that Christ's substitutionary death is not sufficient Gordan Runyan: under the Roman. John Train: Yeah, yeah. It provides the intro. Tom Miller: Yeah, but there has to be more, John Train: right, onto the treadmill. Gordan Runyan: It's a good start. John Train: Right. Tom Miller: Yeah. David Morris: R. C., Tom Miller: they have a concept of a redemptive bank in heaven, you know, right? And that Christ's crucifixion and resurrection is merely the first deposit. David Morris: R. C. Sproul mentions his definition of justification. Yes, he said a legal declaration of God's given to sinners whereby they are made righteous, and Christ Jesus takes our sins and pays for them. And that's his definition of justification, where we are made righteous through Jesus Christ, for he took our sins. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, that definition also brings in the idea of a double imputation, or imputation versus non-imputation, or, well, actually it'd be the same for the believer. You're getting the imputed righteousness of Christ on you, right, but he's taking off all your sins and putting those on Christ. Christ. It's double that way. But if I may Tom Miller: quote Luther, he says, He, meaning Jesus, is both architect and worker, the infinite mind behind the conception and the energy behind the construction. He is designer and deliverer, source and supplier, and the one whose inspired word instills confidence and undergirds our faith. So what that quote brings us back to is our faith is not subjective, but it's objective, and the object is Christ and his finished work. David Morris: Right. John Train: And faith is the only instrument that lays hold of that object. Tom Miller: Right. It's the only path to it. David Morris: Another definition that R. C. gave was what he called divine acquittal. Gordan Runyan: Oh yeah, yeah. David Morris: And that one is good too because it shows where through Jesus and what he's done for us, now then we are made righteous for the work of God. You know, not for any other reason, but through Jesus, as you know, by faith through Jesus, we are now sanctified and made righteous so that we have the work that we can do that God has laid out for us. And I believe R. C. calls it Tom Miller: holy work, I think is what he says. John Train: You know, like the end of Ephesians chapter 2, you know, verse 10, you know, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before, right, so that we would walk in them. So we're saved unto good works, right? Tom Miller: That's right. John Train: Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone, right, in that true believer. Gordan Runyan: You stole my thunder. John Train: There you go. I do it. Tom Miller: I like how that verse connects to what Luther said about Christ being the supplier and also the architect, the conceiver, and then the inspirer of the workers. Gordan Runyan: Yep. Right. David Morris: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: There's another concept here that I really, I think it's fascinating to consider, and it'll get you in trouble on the internet. I don't know how many arguments I've had over this, but in sola fide, faith acts not as the moral cause or ground of salvation. But as the passive instrument, the instrumental cause that unites a believer to Christ. It's depressing, really, to see on the internet how prevalent the idea is that in salvation, we give God our faith, and he gives us salvation in exchange for that faith. John Train: That's classic Arminianism, Gordan Runyan: right? Faith is meritorious, John Train: right? Tom Miller: No, no. Gordan Runyan: And it's depressing how widespread the view is that God owes you something because you chose to exercise faith. Tom Miller: You can't exercise something that isn't yours, David Morris: right? Tom Miller: And the faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Then not only is faith a gift, but God retains ownership. David Morris: Amen. Right. Yeah, that's right. And I just thought came to me was where it says, the Scripture says, No one can come to the Father except—or no one can come to me except the Father draw them. John Train: John 6. David Morris: So how does he draw them? He gives them faith to believe Christ. John Train: That's right. David Morris: And so that faith is grace-given. John Train: Absolutely. David Morris: It's not given for any other reason. I don't care, you can stand on your head in the corner for 15 hours. It won't get you grace or it won't get you faith. But faith is grace-given, and you have to have that grace-given faith to accept Christ. And when you do, then, and only then, can you afford to go any other direction. You know, I mean, you can claim the justification, you can claim the righteousness, you can claim sanctification, you can claim the divine acquittal, you can claim all those things, but you can only do it through Christ. Tom Miller: Right. John Train: That's a good word. To jog my memory, you know, so there is a distinction that Reformed makes between justification and sanctification. Now, in the Roman system of salvation, they—They blur the lines between them. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, it's really John Train: a combination of the two, right? Tom Miller: Yeah. John Train: And that's why they can deny faith alone, is because in their system, the sinner has to actually become righteous in God's sight. Tom Miller: Yeah, John Train: be accepted. Tom Miller: The whole thing that they don't talk about, what they're intimating, is that salvation is meritorious. Right. Faith alone erases the meritorious part. Right. We're not granted that faith because we merit it. Unidentified speaker: Right. Gordan Runyan: It's the great dividing wall, really, between biblical religion and every other faith on the planet, is this idea that you can't make it yourself. You can't do this. God has to do it for you. You can't reform yourself. Right. David Morris: There's no way. Gordan Runyan: I went to a Baptist associational meeting, and the preacher was a preacher from a large Baptist church in the region, and he was preaching on the parable of the seeds and the soils, and got to the bit about the good soil yielding the crop and everything. And the moral of the story for him, his point of application was, so here are three things you can do to make sure you are the good soil when the seed gets thrown into you and you'll bear good fruit. And man, that's deadly dangerous. That just, you can almost hear a serpent hiss in the middle of that, yeah. You have to prepare yourself. You have to make sure you're the one that will hear. And that way you can say, well, yeah, it all came from God. God really did give me the faith. It wasn't mine, but Tom Miller: I did do some work before all this started. Let me tell you something. I've been preaching the gospel since 1969. And I have seen some folks come to the Lord, and I've had people that showed up to see me thanking me that I preached the gospel to them. And I guarantee you, if it had been a basis of merit, I wouldn't have given them bus fare to get to church. And to this day, I am aghast at some of them, that how far the Holy Spirit has transformed what a person I wouldn't have lended five dollars to. Unidentified speaker: Right. Gordan Runyan: Isn't that an evidence of what we're talking about? That God so often does that sort of thing where He plants His word in somebody that we would never spot, or, you know, we would think, This guy is so far off the beam. Let's preach to guys that are a little bit closer first, and then we'll go after this. John Train: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: But that's just not what God does. John Train: He targets the weak and despised, right? The lowly. Tom Miller: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: Right. Tom Miller: Not many wise. John Train: Not many, right. There are some, but not many. That's right. So does that, in y'all's opinion, does faith alone define what the true gospel is, right? Anyone denying that faith alone justifies? Tom Miller: No, that's what makes it good news. John Train: Galatians 1, right? David Morris: Right. Yeah. There's no other gospel. John Train: No other gospel. Tom Miller: I mean, grace is preached by others who don't believe in sola fide, but it's a very capricious faith. John Train: Oh, Rome does not deny the necessity of Tom Miller: grace. John Train: Rome agrees with us that grace is necessary, right? Tom Miller: Yeah. But it isn't sufficient. Sure. For them, it's one brick in the structure. Gordan Runyan: It's the same with Mormon theology, John Train: right? Gordan Runyan: Well, that's how they believe in grace. Can't make it without grace, David Morris: right? Gordan Runyan: But you have to add all of your human effort to the grace. John Train: As in the Book of Mormon, you know, deny yourself of all ungodliness, then is my grace sufficient for you. David Morris: And see, we know from Genesis, God created the world, and how come did He do that? Well, He did it for grace and love, and to have His glory and honor to Him given. And then He goes on through everywhere, and then He comes to the Son, and He freely gives His Son so that we can be saved. But now, as I was saying earlier, if you don't have the faith that God gives you, then you can't meet Jesus where He's at. Gordan Runyan: And you won't want to. David Morris: And Gordan Runyan: you won't want to. David Morris: That's right. So every day is a grace-given day by God. He don't owe us a thing. He don't owe us another breath. And we have to understand that those times, everything is for Him. We need to glorify Him in everything we do. But every day He gives us is grace. It's a new grace, a new mercy. And we have no—there's no way, there's no work we can do to earn that. It's freely given by faith so that we can accept Christ. Gordan Runyan: Right. That's where I think it's really important to maintain what we've been saying about justification being that one-time thing, because once we are justified, once God has declared us righteous in Christ, then—Then we are supposed to do good works, and God calls us to do those things, and we should be zealous for them, it says in Titus. John Train: They've been prepared for us to walk in, right? David Morris: Yeah. Right. See, from the beginning of time, He set it up so that we can take the Holy Spirit and walk in His holy works, right? So that we can do it through faith, only for Him to be glorified. We can't—it's nothing. We can't glorify ourselves in nothing we do. John Train: Right. And then He's going to reward us for doing the works He prepared for us to do, which is amazing. David Morris: That's the faith to do. John Train: All of grace, right? Yeah. David Morris: See, He gives us that reward, and why? I mean, He doesn't owe it to us. Gordan Runyan: No, John Train: absolutely. David Morris: But it's strictly faith, all faith-oriented. We have to believe on that and stand on it. And then, what does it say? Paul says, For him who run the race, you know, run the race with endurance. See, that's what Christ expects from us, is we take our faith and run that race that He set before us so that when we get to heaven, we can be rewarded. Right. John Train: And it's that distinction between wages and a gift, right? David Morris: Yes. Tom Miller: Yeah. John Train: Our faith is— Tom Miller: it's all gifts, John Train: right? Tom Miller: He has given us Christ, His Son. He has given us the Word. He has given us the Holy Spirit, and hence, through the Spirit and the Word, He has given us faith. John Train: Right. Great summary. Where would y'all go if somebody who denies this doctrine told you, Okay, well, show me where that's taught in the Bible? What passage would you go to, number one? Gordan Runyan: My number one go-to would be Ephesians 2:8 and 9. Yeah. But assuming they had some kind of answer for that, I've been thinking about Isaiah chapter 64, verse 6: All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, our iniquities like the wind carry us away. The functional part of that is, and all of our righteousness is filthy rags, filthy garments. If that's true, if our situation as sinners before God means that even the good things that we do are filthy in His sight, then how is our works going to help us? We're just piling on filthy rags, John Train: right? Gordan Runyan: You know, John Train: how could that contribute to our justification? Gordan Runyan: Right. He's telling us to get rid of them. It's John Train: a Gordan Runyan: demerit, John Train: not a merit. Tom Miller: Right, exactly. And I go back to Hebrews 11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. David Morris: What object am I to... Tom Miller: be my object of faith without faith being the gift and the ability to do so? And I find then that that is the substance, the stuff that builds hope in me, divine hope. And that gives me the ability, like Noah, to carry out my hope in visible evidence. John Train: That's right. David Morris: Yeah. And I still like Romans 3. You know, you read it earlier, Romans 3:28. Go ahead and read it if you got it. Gordan Runyan: We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. David Morris: So that just tells you right there that apart from works. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, and I understand somebody being upset about us using the word alone. Oh, alone. It doesn't say alone in the Bible, or we're the only time it does, it says that's not the way it is, or something like that. But if we're justified by faith apart from all the works of the law, and the law covers every area of our life, what other works are there? You know? So to me, those are equivalent terms: apart from works of the law and just alone. John Train: It's not just talking about Jewish ceremonial rituals, you know, circumcision. It's everything. Gordan Runyan: It's everything that would condemn you. You've got to get those things right. John Train: The totality of God's moral law. Tom Miller: Well, if they want to play semantics, then I will say that faith is sufficient. Without addition. Gordan Runyan: Sufficient without addition. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Tom Miller: Yeah, people want to play semantics. But what part of alone don't they understand? Gordan Runyan: Right. Tom Miller: It doesn't mean the lonely bull. It means without help. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, right. Yeah, that's right. Another place I would go is Romans 4 and verse 5. It says that to the one who does not work, does not work, but believes upon Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. We've pointed out a lot that whatever your system is, however you're going to interpret this soteriology of the Scripture, it has to deal with the fact that God justifies the ungodly, not the people who work themselves up to a certain status. Right. He justifies, counts as innocent and righteous the ungodly. And there's no other system that can do that but the one that we think we've pulled out of the Scripture. Unidentified speaker: Right, John Train: because in Rome, you know, Rome would say the ungodly person has to be godly before he can— Gordan Runyan: Absolutely. You've got to be transformed, John Train: and the instrument in their system of justification is baptism. Right, Gordan Runyan: right. Tom Miller: For by faith are you saved through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. Who do you want to get the glory of your salvation, yourself? David Morris: Right. Right. God Tom Miller: ain't going to bear—as God would say if He was a Southerner—that dog don't hunt. That's David Morris: right. Right. Read Romans 3:30. Thirty-one. Since Gordan Runyan: indeed God, who will justify the uncircumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through that faith is one, do we then abolish the law through faith? May it never be. On the contrary, we establish the law. David Morris: Yeah, see, I think that right there goes along with what you were saying. Gordan Runyan: Absolutely. David Morris: Because you got the circumcised is counted righteous, you know, through faith. But yet that very same faith Gordan Runyan: justifies the unrighteous. Yeah, that's right. David Morris: And what it does is points to the law. Gordan Runyan: It'll point you back to God's standards of righteousness. David Morris: That's right. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. John Train: What are the Old Testament examples Paul points us to to demonstrate justification by faith alone? This is not just a New Testament thing. Gordan Runyan: Right. Cue the Jeopardy music. John Train: That's right. Y'all read Romans. Jeopardy. Gordan Runyan: Of course, it's Abraham. John Train: That's right. Gordan Runyan: He believed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Tom Miller: Yeah. John Train: And then James, in chapter two, uses Abraham again. And what is he talking about in that chapter about Abraham's faith being demonstrated? Right, right, right. Living out his faith. It's not a dead faith. It's a living faith. All true faith is living faith. David Morris: Right. And of course, you know, we know the story of Abraham and Isaac, and the whole thing here that I find marvelous is Abraham got the word at home. He was at home, and he said, We want you to sacrifice— I want you to sacrifice your son. Now, we don't know exactly how many days it all took, but all this time, Abraham had faith that he was going to offer up Isaac, but he knew that even if he killed Isaac, God was able to raise him back up. He had that kind of faith. John Train: He was that three-day journey to Mount Moriah. David Morris: Yeah, John Train: very symbolic. David Morris: Very symbolic, yeah. But then, you know, the time that he was up on the mount, we don't know if it was part of just one day or what it was, but I would assume— Gordan Runyan: I think it was all that same day. David Morris: Same day. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. David Morris: Well, I was going to say I would assume it would have been because in their day they got up early. They didn't— Gordan Runyan: They weren't messing around. David Morris: They didn't mess around. Tom Miller: They were old people. You know, we don't sleep late. David Morris: So they got up early and went up on the mountain, and so then Abraham, through this whole time, never wavered in his faith. And so what does that say about us? What do we need to do? Gordan Runyan: Well, he's kind of the model. He's the prototype for us, that has been saved by grace. John Train: He's the blueprint, right? David Morris: Right. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, blueprint. John Train: It's another testimony of his faith that when he got to the mountain, he didn't delay. Carry out the order, right? David Morris: He didn't delay. He went right ahead and was fixing to do what he was called to do. And then what did God say, or the angel of the Lord say? He said, Hey, now that you've shown me that you won't hold nothing back from me because you've even offered your son—Your only son. Your only son. Tom Miller: Your only begotten son. David Morris: Your only begotten son, that's right. So that's a reference right there towards Christ. Tom Miller: Christ is all throughout the story. It's really amazing. David Morris: Yes, I mean, it's just loaded with Christ. Gordan Runyan: Well, John brought up James 2, and there's maybe no passage that is more marshaled against sola fide than James 2, talking about faith without works is dead, especially in verse 21. I'm just going to read 21 through 23 for you, maybe 24, and then get your reaction. How does this not undermine your doctrine of sola fide? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. All right, Protestant theologians, explain yourselves. Tom Miller: Well, if I'm laying on the floor and you want to determine whether or not you call the meat wagon or the ambulance, you put a mirror in front of my nose. If I still fog it up, then I'm alive. If you say you are a born-again Christian and you belong to Jesus, then I will see the breath of life in you. And that's the work James is talking about. David Morris: I love it. Tom Miller: He's not talking about genuflecting or giving. You know, I'm sorry. If you don't give to the cooperative program, that doesn't necessarily mean you're without faith. But if you don't never come to church, and I come by your house and there's not a Bible to be found, then I might agree with James: your faith has no works. John Train: Where's your fruit? Gordan Runyan: Well, I mean, we do agree with James. We're John Train: not Gordan Runyan: arguing against him. We're just saying we might apply that faith without works thing to you, and if you're not fogging the mirror, David Morris: right? John Train: Yeah. So it's a justification before man, David Morris: right? John Train: It's the personal relationship. It's not talking about our justification before a holy God. It's about, you know, show me your faith. David Morris: It's life signs. John Train: Right. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, that's right. John Train: Show me your faith. David Morris: That's right. Gordan Runyan: I really believe when it talks about justification in the James 2 passage, it's talking about—maybe the better word for it, for our understanding, is vindication. We're vindicated, or God's action in me is vindicated as people see the fruits of God being John Train: borne through— I like the centeredness of that. Well, God's work in me is showing. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, and it's vindicating Him; it's vindicating me. Tom Miller: There's an implication here that I think is true, that James—why it's in the Scriptures. Because some unbelievers are going to say, Well, you don't look any different than me. Well, if there are righteous works in my life, they will back up what my mouth quotes. David Morris: Right. John Train: That's observed over time, right? Tom Miller: Yeah. David Morris: Right. John Train: That's getting to know a person. David Morris: That's why I was going to say the apple tree don't put out an apple right away. Right, so you have to work at it, but the difference between the faith of the Spirit is once your apple tree starts growing, then there's fruit on it all the time. Tom Miller: And that fruit tastes like apple, not like peach. David Morris: Right. Gordan Runyan: That's the right kind of fruit. David Morris: So you have the right kind of fruit growing on your tree, or on your vine, whatever you want to call it, but you've got the right kind of fruit growing when you are, by faith you receive Christ and you plant the seed, and now then. But the thing is, is that tree, there's always fruit on that tree. Gordan Runyan: Right. David Morris: And when that happens, eventually people can't, they cannot walk by the tree without seeing the light in it, Tom Miller: because it's a living faith. It's not a window dressing. It's a living faith. John Train: Right. David Morris: Right. John Train: And the tree's continually growing, right, and producing. David Morris: Yeah. John Train: It's not like, Oh, I did all this 30 years ago for Jesus. David Morris: No, it just keeps rattling. John Train: I'm good now. David Morris: Right. John Train: I'm prime. I've moved on from my fruit-bearing stages, you know, as a Christian, and Gordan Runyan: I'm retired. John Train: That's behind me. David Morris: I love that. Have you ever heard the statement, Well, I'm 50 years old, so I can quit now. Tom Miller: I don't need to work as hard. David Morris: I've heard that in Christian. Tom Miller: I used to have a deacon that every time I asked for testimonies, he'd say, 35 years ago, the Lord saved my soul. I finally didn't let him sit down one night. I said, Now come on. I said, Brother, God's still blessing you, ain't he? He said, Oh, sure. And then he rips off a list. I said, Okay. Next time I ask for a testimony, how about something more up to date? David Morris: Exactly. See, that's what I was going to say. You know, they were using, in, what is it, in Deuteronomy or where it was, where they said once the guys hit fifty years old, they were to stop doing the heavy labor, you know, in the priesthood. In the priesthood, Gordan Runyan: yeah. David Morris: But I can't find anywhere around that, anywhere in there, that they were to quit, because they, if I remember correctly, they quit the heavy lifting and started doing the— John Train: Helping out their brothers. Moved David Morris: right on into other stuff, you know. They didn't quit. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. David Morris: They got desk jobs. John Train: Yeah, David Morris: they just got to do other stuff, you know. Gordan Runyan: Well, one thing that I've found deceptive sometimes is you get, particularly our Catholic friends, arguing that this passage in James 2 undermines or completely nullifies the idea of sola fide, because they'll quote the scripture, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. And they'll say it was fulfilled on the day he offered up Isaac, but it wasn't fulfilled in the sense that this is the time that God said it to him: Your faith is now counted as righteousness. That's not when it happened. It was years before Isaac was born when God made the promise to him. It's at the beginning of Abraham's story. The offering of Isaac is way at the end of Abraham's story. John Train: In Hebrews, it talks about Abraham's faith, you know, setting out from his country and out from an unknown land. David Morris: Yeah, John Train: he had faith in Yahweh even there. Tom Miller: What are we going to do with the very short Christian testimony of Rahab the harlot, who by faith did not perish with those that were disobedient? David Morris: Right. Gordan Runyan: And she demonstrated her faith. Tom Miller: And since it's here in Hebrews 11, the roll call of faith, I take it that she had a recent but very active faith in the God of Abraham. David Morris: Yeah, Gordan Runyan: I think that's clear when she's visited by the spies. She makes that confession, We know your God is the God. John Train: Yeah, yeah. Tom Miller: And then she turns out to be in the ancestry of Boaz. David Morris: Right. John Train: And then James uses her too in chapter 2 here. Right. As an example of that living faith. David Morris: Right. Gordan Runyan: What we've been talking about does remind me, I've thought about this a few times and haven't said it, so I want to say it while I'm thinking about it again, but Martin Luther had an illustration of imputation versus infusion of righteousness, and he would have you imagine two piles of manure. And in the Catholic scheme, what you need to do to clean up that manure and cover the stink is you gotta fill it with some kind of magic that suddenly begins to turn all the manure into gold so that now you have a pile of gold there. John Train: God loves gold, right? God loves gold. Gordan Runyan: But, and that would be the Catholic version, that God at your baptism begins infusing faith into you, and that faith is supposed to change you and transform you, like we've said, to the point where you are now the righteous man who deserves to go to heaven. John Train: You've earned it. Gordan Runyan: And the Protestant view is that the only way you're going to deal with that is if God decides to snow on it, and he just covers that manure pile so you can't smell it anymore because it's under a blanket of the grace of God, symbolized by the snow there. Tom Miller: And the snow is the blood of Christ. Gordan Runyan: Sure, that pure whiteness. John Train: His righteousness. Gordan Runyan: Pure John Train: righteousness, the forgiveness and righteousness we have in Jesus. So how is that not a legal fiction? Gordan Runyan: Of course. John Train: How is that not a legal fiction? According to the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, that's a legal fiction. Gordan Runyan: Oh, right. John Train: It's made up. Why is that not? Gordan Runyan: Well, I think it's, I think we've shown where it's demonstrated in the Scripture, but the way it works is, it's not a legal fiction because justice has been done. John Train: Right. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. All the demands of justice have been satisfied. John Train: We're represented by Christ, right? So we were represented by Adam, Romans 5. Now we're in Christ, and we receive all the benefits that he offers, which is a perfect righteousness and forgiveness of sins. So it's a covenantal reality, right? It's not a legal fiction because God is the one making the declaration, and he sets the rules, right? David Morris: Right. Tom Miller: I'm not a red letter only person, but I will say this, that when something comes straight from Christ's own mouth, I tend to take it at absolute face value. And when the lady caught in adultery... was forgiven by Christ. He didn't say, Go and see the priest and give alms. He didn't say, Go out and buy six turtle doves. He didn't say, Do five Hail Marys and three Stations of the Cross. No, what he said was, Go and sin no more. By faith she was cleansed, and then by faith she's to go out and live by her faith. John Train: Right. Grow in sanctification. Tom Miller: That's what he's expecting. David Morris: Right. John Train: You know, so the illustration the Reformed use was the empty hand, right? The empty hand of faith reaching out, receiving from God all of his gracious gifts in Christ, right? And I saw in an Eastern Orthodox confession of faith, they explicitly deny that that's what faith is. It's not the empty hand. Wow. Right. Gordan Runyan: What is it? Do you remember what it says? John Train: It's a system of merit. It's, you've got to do all these things, got to be baptized. David Morris: So traditions, ceremonies, John Train: got to be part of the life of the church. David Morris: So it's a works-oriented program. John Train: Sure. Faith and works. Yeah. Gordan Runyan: Well, then it sounds like even when they get around to defining faith, it has to do with works. David Morris: Sure. John Train: Yep. Right. It breaks my heart how many people are trapped in this false gospel, you know, all around the world. Tom Miller: Yeah. For them, faith is like having the keys to a new Cadillac, and then the dealer says, All right, you have three years to go out and earn the rest of the car. John Train: That's right. Tom Miller: Faith from the Protestant viewpoint is you get the keys and the license plates and the permission. David Morris: And the authority, John Train: the adoption, right, David Morris: to drive it, John Train: to drive it. I love that. David Morris: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: One of the truths that I've just historically found very... comforting is the idea that justification, that forensic declaration of righteousness, it's not just that legal thing. It is that, but it's not just that. What it means then, from that point forward, and I just find this to be so sweet. It's such a cool cup of water on a hot day, this idea that not only does God call you these things, but once He calls you those things, He begins to treat you like that is the truth. There's no room for us to talk about it being a fiction. God calls us that and then begins to treat us accordingly. John Train: And what's the term used about believers in the New Testament? Saints. Holy ones. Set apart. Purified. Tom Miller: More noble than others. John Train: Sure. Unidentified speaker: Right. Tom Miller: Yeah. John Train: So from a pastoral role, you pastors here, how is this doctrine helpful for someone who's doubting their salvation? They're not sure, or maybe they've just sinned grievously and now they're wondering if God still accepts them, right? Gordan Runyan: You want to take that one first, Tom? You wanted a pastoral. Tom Miller: I'm going to take them to Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. For by grace are you saved through faith, and not of works. God understands you're going to do some works that don't belong, but He forgave you of the previous ones in Christ. In Christ, He'll forgive you of them now. What are you basing your faith? Is Christ the foundation of your faith, or me, myself, and I? John Train: Right. My performance. The quality or lack. Tom Miller: If you truly belong to Him, if you have stood in that baptismal water and said, Christ is my Savior, and I trust in Him and Him alone for my eternal salvation, and I dunked you into the water and you took His name onto your name, then He's not going to leave you. John Train: Right. And so the saint, the holy one who has been forgiven by the Lord graciously, can be honest about their failures to the Lord, right, in prayer. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. John Train: We don't have to cover our sins up. He already knows them, but we don't have to cover things up in hopes of maintaining our relationship with Him, right? Tom Miller: If we confess our sins, He is what? Faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We do need to ask Him to cleanse us from the unrighteous thoughts that brought on the transgression. Right. And because humans don't do anything without a prior idea. John Train: Right. David Morris: And there's nothing you can hide from God. So whatever you sin in Christ, when you sin, there's no need to try to cover it because He already sees it. John Train: That's right. David Morris: And so the first thing— John Train: Yeah, the Lord's already paid for it. David Morris: That's right. So the first thing you got to do is realize that we don't have a spirit of fear. And then there's also a scripture that says we can enter boldly into the throne room. That's right. And so now then, if you don't have a spirit of fear and you're willing to walk boldly into that throne room, guess what? He'd go and pat you on the back after you say, Hey, forgive me. I am sorry. I've done messed up. Tom Miller: Well, to be absolutely true to my ordination, I have to say that before the foundation of the world, God knew you were going to do that. David Morris: Yeah, He sure did. Tom Miller: And He made Christ's blood sacrifice sufficient to cover it. David Morris: That's right. John Train: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: It's beautiful. It's amazing, and I can't fathom another way that it could possibly work. Yeah. And yes, that question about somebody, and I'm sure every pastor has experienced that, where somebody does come in just mortified. Either they have committed some grievous sin, or they just recognize that they wandered off the path and they're not as close to the Lord as they want to be, and they're doubting their salvation. The only thing I would add to what Pastor Tom was saying, and he was quoting Scripture, everything, you know, there's nothing to argue with there, but sometimes I'm Puritan enough to believe that God has a purpose even in us doubting our salvation at times. David Morris: Yes. Gordan Runyan: And it's a good and redemptive purpose. When you're doubting your salvation, that's not great. You know, we don't want you to be in that condition, but I recognize that God can use that as a tool to spur us on to greater— David Morris: Yeah, Gordan Runyan: call us to Himself. John Train: Focusing our eyes on Christ. David Morris: Yeah. John Train: Self-examination, right? Not to a morbid extent, right? Gordan Runyan: So I've gotten to where when people come to me with those sorts of doubts, it's not my immediate thought that I need to fix this person before they leave this room. You know, that's going to be God that does that. Tom Miller: Absolutely. The one thing I would add to what I said before, occasionally they come with something they've done, and in the process of what they did, they harmed a brother or sister in Christ. I always tell them, now you need to go and find Joe and tell him you're sorry. Gordan Runyan: That's a good word. That's not practical. Tom Miller: Because Christ told us to do that. David Morris: Amen. Tom Miller: I'm not saying he won't forgive you. I'm just saying if you really want him to smile, then you go and find brother so-and-so and tell him, You know what I did yesterday and what I said. I'm sorry, brother. I was wrong. John Train: Got to make it right. David Morris: Yes, right. Gordan Runyan: Can you imagine how our churches would be changed if that first step of Matthew 18 was just routinely followed? Tom Miller: Yes. We'd all have to stop saying, Well, he made me do it. Gordan Runyan: Oh, we might grandfather in people of your generation. We'll let you all keep saying that. That would be all right. John Train: Right. But, you know, so this doctrine is so comforting to that individual who is in the midst of doubt and lacking assurance. You know, it's such a comfort to them instead of driving them to presumption. Gordan Runyan: Sure. There you go. Encouraging. Do John Train: you really have true faith? Gordan Runyan: Right. John Train: Are you looking back to the time you raised your hand 20 years ago in vacation Bible school? Gordan Runyan: There you go. Tom Miller: Yeah. John Train: You haven't done anything for the Lord since. Tom Miller: Yeah, that's why I'm so careful in baptisms to get a verbal, a verbal confession of Christ. In the baptistry, not only for the audience to hear, but for them to confess it. Gordan Runyan: That's super important. David Morris: Yes. Because Tom Miller: what was the prerequisite for the Ethiopian to be baptized? If you believe with all your heart, you may. David Morris: That's right. Gordan Runyan: If you don't get that confession of faith from them, I don't think you should be baptizing them in the first place. Tom Miller: No. Well, we should do that ahead of time. But I just like—I'm an old soldier. I like to make sure that everybody's equipment is in order. David Morris: Yes. John Train: Yeah, your standard issue. Tom Miller: That's right. David Morris: You know, it's pretty tough to have a spur-of-the-moment baptism. Oh, yeah. You know, because anybody can walk up and say, Let me be baptized, but there should be a process of elimination where that you have an opportunity to speak with them beforehand. And I'm not talking about today. I'm talking about two weeks ago whenever you were visiting with them and things like that for a while. You're visiting with them before that time comes. And so then you have, you know, God has worked on you in that period of time to know their heart. You've seen what their heart is. You've been able to tell that they are true, you know. Tom Miller: Yeah. And if you haven't, another one of my ironclad, unmovable things is anyone like that must come to my communicants class on Sunday after church, and we go over what it means to be a Christian. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, we've kind of, we're talking about some practical theology. You were teaching us about practical theology on Wednesday, and the other question that comes up in baptism and talking about faith alone and stuff is, how do you know? And that's kind of what y'all have been talking about. And I think it's just like we're talking about what a comfort having right doctrine is. I feel like in that moment of baptism, if the person being baptized makes a strong statement of faith right there, that's just that historic event is going to be a source of comfort to him or her after they go on and are tempted, they can go back and remember, I confessed this in front of all these witnesses. Tom Miller: Yeah, I'll never forget October the 9th, 1969. And it's because that's when the real line was drawn. John Train: That's right. Your allegiance shifted forever. David Morris: There you go. Yeah, that's good. The real line. I like that. The real line was drawn. Right. John Train: The dividing. Gordan Runyan: Let's toss that around a little bit. You use the word allegiance there, and there is in some corners an advocacy of maybe defining faith a little bit differently than we've been historically used to, or maybe translationally used to. I don't think they're trying to really change the substance of what it means to have faith. Maybe they are, but the idea that our English word faith might be better explicated as believing allegiance to God. David Morris: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: And maybe that's a—Two-word definition of what living faith looks like, that you are, you're believing, but you're also actively loyal, and you actively know what team you're playing for. John Train: It's like you've got a uniform on, and everybody can see you're in the red. That guy belongs to that team, right? I get it. David Morris: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Gordan Runyan: And then if you're a sports guy at all, like, or if you played sports when you were little or something, everybody messes up in a team sport. When you're playing the game or something, your quarterback fumbles the ball or something like that. But the reason you don't kick him off the team is because you know he's on your team. He's your guy. And so when we have Christians who are falling into sin, that doesn't mean that they have the wrong uniform on. It just means they drop the ball, literally John Train: or Gordan Runyan: figuratively or whatever, Tom Miller: you know. Well, we have to go to the wedding feast, don't we, with the man wearing the wrong garment was asked to leave. David Morris: How'd you get in here? You're not in the garment. Tom Miller: Because our garment is our faith. I think James is telling us, but it's a garment that opens doors. It's a garment that inspires. It's a garment that says, Ah, ah, ah, ah, no, don't put your foot there. David Morris: Right. Yeah. Yep. Well, you had said loyal to the team, which reminded me earlier, I believe it was earlier you said about, well, maybe not us, but anyway, where the scripture says... That you gather yourself together with like-minded people, not as some do, you know. So he's referring to the fact that some, when you claim to be a Christian, he didn't call you to sit on your thumbs. He asked you to do stuff. And a case in point, if you guys don't mind me throwing this out there, every Wednesday morning at 10 o'clock at the First Christian Church, you will find us over there with a Bible study. We're doing Bible study, and anyone is welcome to come. And also Wednesday night at 6 p. m. here at the Immanuel Baptist Church, you'll find us, same guys, sitting here doing the Bible study again because we love this kind of stuff. But I just said that, and everyone is invited to either one of them. You can come to either one. But if you're sitting on your thumbs at home and not doing nothing, well, that might be an opportunity for you to get your feet in the game, you know, to get a little wet. Tom Miller: If you want your boredom erased, come listen to these old geezers get together. David Morris: Yeah, I John Train: guarantee you—exception to that remark. Tom Miller: He and I are geezers. We have the bona fides to prove it. David Morris: Yeah, and I guarantee you we can make you laugh till you cry. Gordan Runyan: Yep, that's a good word. Get yourself in the game. David Morris: Yeah, right. Gordan Runyan: Put on the right uniform. David Morris: Right. Tom Miller: And yeah, if you want the coach to put you in the game. Then show up dressed ready to play. John Train: Yeah. Gordan Runyan: That's kind of a military thing too. You have to show up ready, ready to do the job. Tom Miller: Yeah, you know, in the military, Article 33, I think it is, of the UCMJ: failure to repair, which means failure to be ready. Now, I've never enforced it. I've always said, Get in here, and issue them some additional equipment. Gordan Runyan: Is that a euphemism for dusting of the head? Tom Miller: Yeah, head duster, yes. You'd be surprised how many fleas come out. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, we call that additional personal instruction. Tom Miller: Well, we have— we're supposed to call it extra training. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, right. So that's what it is. All right. So the pastors here are not asking for the power necessarily to deliver that kind of instruction these days. The Lord wouldn't be too happy with that. Not allowed to beat on the sheep. John Train: That's right. Tom Miller: No, but I have found the Holy Spirit can do it aptly because He's done it to me. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, He had to do it. Yeah, exactly. Anything else before we go? Good books? John Train: Um, I think James White's got a book, Faith Alone. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, he does. Yeah, John Train: that'd be a good one for a fuller treatment of why this is such a beautiful doctrine. It's not just so you can get into the online debates, but it's a comfort to your soul. Gordan Runyan: Really, I'd recommend Martin Luther's commentary on Romans and Galatians. Those are big deals. Tom Miller: Yeah, and if you really want to explore the solas, Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will will get your ducks in order. Yep. And I don't know how long this has been out, but I just bought a copy of The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry, and I recommend it for anybody who wants the straight skinny. John Train: Very relevant doctrine. Tom Miller: Dr. Kenneth Gentry Jr. It's a good book. John Train: Redemption Accomplished and Applied, John Murray. Tom Miller: Yeah. John Train: That's really what we're talking about, is how can someone who has broken God's law be accepted and received into His presence? Gordan Runyan: I'd recommend the Canons of Dort as well. It's not huge long, so you've got to be paying attention while you're reading, but, you know, it's written at beyond an 11-year-old reading level, but it's short, and it's, I think it's pastoral. And John Train: Heidelberg Catechism. Yeah. Read the chapter on justification in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. That lays it all out. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. John Train: Particularly, you know, making clear our distinction, our differences from Rome, which was the spur of the Reformation movement. David Morris: Yes. Gordan Runyan: All righty, y'all. I think we've run out of breath right at about the right time to call it an episode. Next time we get together, season one, episode four, I think we're looking at David Morris: five. Gordan Runyan: Oh, this is four. Oh, this is four. Five. We're looking at the topic of being devoted to Christ alone, solus Christus. Tom Miller: Ooh. Devoted to Christ. What in the world? David Morris: What does that mean? I'm going to have to work a little harder? Tom Miller: Don't worry, it's not scary. John Train: The labor of love. Tom Miller: Somebody pray. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. Let's pray and then we'll close. Father, here we are in your presence, just thankful for the opportunities you present to us. We pray that this episode would be blessed and that it would be helpful to many who hear it. And we ask all these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Tom Miller: Amen. Gordan Runyan: So remember our websites, John Train: RagtownReformed. com. Check us out on the internets, all your podcast apps. David Morris: Both Bible studies. Yeah. Invite everybody to that. If you need to find yourself, if you're getting a little dry, well, you can come visit us. We'll help you get in the game again. John Train: Head to the website, send us a question or a comment, please. David Morris: Yes. Gordan Runyan: Immanuel Baptist Church with an I, Immanuel on YouTube. That's right. Yep. sounds good. And we should be, I think you mentioned on all your podcasts, John Train: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever. Gordan Runyan: Yeah, John Train: it's Gordan Runyan: on there. John Train: Ragtown Reformed, it'll pop up. Gordan Runyan: Yeah. Tom Miller: Yeah, First Christian of Tucumcari is on Facebook. Gordan Runyan: Very good. With Tom Miller: very good directions how to get there. Gordan Runyan: You all have an easy location, brother. Tom Miller: Not as easy as Temple Baptist, but close to it. Gordan Runyan: You almost have to swerve to avoid hitting Temple Baptist. Tom Miller: Right. No, you had to have blinders on. Gordan Runyan: All right, y'all, well, thanks for coming. God bless y'all out there in internet land. Love in Christ to all of you. Bye.